Distributor, spark plug cables and HV coil

[Marco]

If anyone here would be so mind and has the possibility to check in WIS what does this engine correspond precisely:

A1020106444
IMG_5851.jpeg


May be it says ECE or RUF…


by the was I also found that the short block had two different part number,
SHORT-BLOCK:
FOR USE ON VEHICLES WITH CATALYST TECHNIQUE CAT and
FOR USE ON VEHICLES LESS CATALYST TECHNIQUE

And I think that the first was for both CAT and RUF so also short block have some differences to distinguish…knowing what

[shaq]

[Marco]

Moin Nikola

very clear I understand, so also a super silent chain is not reassuring at all especially on a 16V.

yes I meant exactly that, replacing the chain from the valve cover opening, and thanks for reassurance that guides are still resisting parts even if plastic, I also mention now that like 5000km ago I replaced in Mercedes the valve cover gasket, I asked to check the valves clearance but honestly, for the price I paid, I suppose they only replaced the gasket but yes they told me a very generic "nothing to report"...unfortunately I prefer to do my job when I can by myself or together with the mechanic I trust, because in Mercedes I cannot enter at see what is in my car...but this is basically the normal way any official dealer use...you talk with one person that know nothing that happen behind and if you ask to talk with the mechanics they don't have time...

Can you please express you opinion on the chain tensioner picture, I assume this is also a part that is not recommended to replace if working.

There is may be a misunderstanding from the other message I posted, I did not mention short block to distinguish ECE vs CAT, I understood it as lower part of the engine when pistons lives so I confirm they replaced the whole engine + gearbox, I just commented that looking in the system I see that the blocks, WHEN YOU BUY BLOCKS, are classified with two different part number, FOR USE ON VEHICLES WITH CATALYST TECHNIQUE CAT and FOR USE ON VEHICLES LESS CATALYST TECHNIQUE CAT, and I was just wondering what can be the difference...but writing here now I understand what I did not thing before...the pistons...so buying one or the other block they have different pistons.
but I'm sure I've an original complete engine with all new...what was called new in 1992 when previous Owner replaced instead to make big repair on the 230000km unit

If you or any friends here can see what in WIS or other system means, the "item" replaced is:
A1020106444. This is the engine code not the (short) block only. I see many codes for Engine and may be, hopefully, some are for CAT, some for ECE etc...please check this code if you can.
I'll ask in Mercedes once more, ok, but when you state "I think from description above it is not ECE engine" ok noted but what part of the description you take for this consideration?

latest bad news:
- chain A0039978494 not available anymore neither at factory...I hardly believe you can help here unless you have any site of relieble manufacturer...I've found only Febi for 50 euro...
- in view of future job on headgasket I want to buy a gasket set (not only the gasket itself)...this is another mission impossible...also Elring is not anymore on the market...have you heard about Ajusa? this is what I can buy by myself...

THANKS SO MUCH
Marco

[shaq]

Hi Marco,

I think that OEM Chain was INA which was of highest quality possible. Febi should also be very good if still produced in Germany or under strict quality control.

About chain tensioner there were few different designs during production, the best is one that can go only forward not back, has deadlock built in not only spring loaded.

Problem was not such on single chain but on duplex chain it caused lot of broken cylinder heads (and/or) covers when snaps on 2.5 Models.

The best chain tensioner is Evo2 Model but not available anymore or crazy expensive for such a simple piece of steel.

Like I wrote you compression is strange because ECE is not famous for burnt valve seats (because it breathes and exhales more freely).

On the other hand CAT vehicles are known to have this issue. So if you had Catalyst it would be considered normal, but on ECE it is strange for me so to speak.

Talking head gasket, I bought for my garage for reserve last stocks of GOETZE that was sold under different brands also (Elring, Reinz...) but in every package inside was same GOETZE

About AJUSA I can´t say, that brandname is unkown to me - I will try to buy some Elring/Reinz/Goetze head gasket for 2.3 8v it is cheap and available and to the comparison.

Becuase engine blocks are the same 2.3 8v and 2.3 16v I suppose that head gaskets should be very similar or same (maybe just thickness) but also thickness in Catalogue seems very near and varying from manufacturer to manufacturer. So if I on some day can´t find Goetze I will try to go 2.3 8v Quality part rather than Ajusa. Is only my opinoin.

Bye,
Nikola.

[Marco]

good evening Nikola,

unfortunately with Febi I heard different opinion, I read from valuable forum member Chris Martens, to stay away from anything made by Febi that has rubber inside so this time we should be safe IF the part branded Febi is build in Germany...but how we know this....I searched for INA but nothing I found instead this IWIS company declared as OEM but no catalog to go through...and none selling.

About chain tensioner yes I know at least 3 different designs during production, I hoped you were able to understand from my picture if it's the correct one. May be some friends here can also revert but unfortuatenly for the time beign I've to express my gratitute to you at 99% for all the dedication you have to revert me.

I'd be very curious from a tech point of view to understand how does the chain tensioner in Evo2 Model differs.

if anyone that is reading can also address me where, may be in Germany is easier, there are some seller for the chain A0039978494, I mean as alternative to Febi, I'll check.

thanks to all and wish you a nice weekend

[shaq]

[Marco]

Good morning Nikola,

Thanks for your research if you can address on some manufacturer.
This Ajusa has note “fibermax” may be is the type of material, I cannot find any more info but seems quite common supplier of gasket

Sorry but maybe I missed but I can’t read in your previous messages the description where the tech difference is from chain tensioner on Evo 2, you commented only the more expensive cost it had.
I could not find picture on the forum to compare my chain tensioner if is the correct type the ratchet type, just assume that if installed on an engine in 1992 it was the correct.


IMG_5883.jpeg

Thanks
Marco

[shaq]

[Marco]

Thanks Nikola I take it as a compliment, you know, every place and County has positive and less positive aspects. Italy especially in the past had not just an excellent film industry but also very good dubbers i.e. voice actors, this means that each single movie was available in Italian…no benefit for years of young generations to learn English watching TV.
Indeed I’m not confident at all typing on this platform with the phone reading I see few errors sometimes not commenting how the private messages works or not work
Back on our business:
As chain tensioner was 3 types on 2.3-16, we see also from EPC, I was wondering if from an eagle eye the one I have is the correct, Febi like others, shows a different shape, but again the info you gave me is very helpful: is fine as long it works deadlock, so I can check this when doing the chain job where the chain tensioner has to come full out.

I don’t want to stress your patience but about EVO 2 what I can’t read is how it technically differs; if you you ever compared with another “not EVO 2” deadlock type.

The question allegedly not answered, Febi and chain with rubber inside ? It took it ended as a joke but it seems that Chris had bad experience on bushing but ma be I remember wrong, by the way is still Chris around with the 2.3 ECE?
Few considerations on the companies : all of them probably outsource in China, it doesn’t means necessarily bad quality but it can be and sometimes it is…I also have some parts from Febi also a flexible coupling so nice to know your good experience with their motor mounting.
Meyle …yep bad impression but I can also mention MAPCO where I thrown the belt tensioner pulley after few hours….shot bearing …I bought the last or second last available from Mercedes.
Febi Bilstein is not owning the famous Bilstein brand for shocks, isn’t? They are two different group and company as I know.

Have a nice Sunday
Best
Marco

[shaq]

Hi Marco,

Indeed take it as compliment my grandfather was italian, even teach me language when I was a kid
I was never able to speak it fluently but when I am in Italy I am still able to do the basic communication

As you wrote „back to business“

I will try to explain things in Detail as I played with them a lot:

There are two types of chain tensioners out of those five models during 16v Production

1. without deadlock (all other)
2. with deadlock (Evo2 and one of 2.3-16 tensioners)

Mercedes itself was in doubt what to do - it is the reason behind five tensioners

All have spring inside, housing in which is a spring and piston or pin (I don’t know how to call it correctly) in the middle

Screw that you pictured is for releasing the spring tension on those without deadlock
On those with deadlock you need to unscrew complete housing to free tension from chain that one big screw is not enough and if I remember it is Imbus inside not screw outside on an Evo2

BUT that spring is not enough for tension of chain, is there more like to keep tensioner pin in place before oil pressure is reached in first seconds after engine is started and tensioner is properly stretched

This is why some 16v cars have loosen chain sound in first seconds after start

Those without deadlock operate on oil pressure ONLY to make chain stretched by pressing the guide and should press longer way inside as chain gets longer from normal operation and mileage driven

Housings of tensioners with a deadlock inside are machined in zig-zag shape inside and have a ring that make central pin travelling possible in ONE DIRECTION only (in direction longer = towards chain) they also work on oil pressure but the most important - CAN NEVER GO BACK inside engine. They also self-adjust for wear in guides and chain streching over time by clicking in next longer position. Outside engine man can make them short again by pressing pin out and then installing it again on start position. IMPORTANT this is the only way to install it once removed (making it short), installing long deadlock tensioner leads to instant engine damage !!!

For 2.3-16 they all work correctly as long chain is not over 70.000km because chain is ligh and is easy to tighten it

Therefore I wrote don’t worry about it you have 2.3-16v with single chain

BUT in 2.5-16 it is problematic because chain is heavier (duplex chain) and much stiffer before engine builds oil pressure in first seconds after start it is still not tightened and it can snap (but never break) just jumps and tends to break valve cover from inside rarely it springs on next teeth of cam sproket

This happens even more often on thick oil and cold temperatures so is the best to replace it with Evo2 type on 2.5-16 engines

However Mercedes never again installed such long chains as 16v - it proved a bad engine design. Now they do short chains to only one cam sprocket and then control the other via gear mechanism.

PS At time of 190 production I think Bilstein was one company, I think Febi Brand emerged later out of Bilstein because for example SLS accumulators were back then Bilstein today is Febi only and Bilstein accumulator today doesn’t exist

Bye
Nikola

[Marco]

Hi Nikola

Crystal clear your tech explanation on chain tensioner types.
We could continue in Italian:)

I’ll not replace the one I have, but I’ll buy just to study the interesting mechanism a very cheap chain tensioner I find on AUTODOC: it’s Truckteck Automotive (15€)identical to Febi (45€) they are both 1020501011 part number both declared compatible with my car, I attach picture I think it’s a deadlock type. Does it look like that for you?

Doing the chain replacement should I take out the chain tensioner housing or unscrew the inner screw to release chain tension (from my simple not deadlock chain tensioner). I’m wondering this in order to have more chain slack for for the operation and also because I think I’ve micro oil drop coming out from the alluminium seal ring and may be is good idea to take all out and fix.

I’m so sorry to ask once more the general question addressed to anyone before, but in Mercedes they didn’t help much on this code from Mercedes 1992 ‘s invoice: A1020106444.
Don’t you have any original program showing what it is? engine (ECE or RUF?)

Ciao
Marco

[shaq]

Hi Marco

I will tonight make drawing how deadlock tensioner looks inside

(Not at home right now)

Deadlock housing has hole in the middle that is not smooth boring - but looks like stairs inside, pin can travel forward but not back

Pin or Piston is on normal one smooth as well BUT on deadlock type looks like have one piston ring around it

It is that detail that together with “stairs” inside prevents back travel

From your picture I would say it is not deadlock because thread for cap need to be inside not outside end opening of the housing.

At least for Evo2 one, just took picture from my 2.5-16:

See hexagon housing with round cap inside and hexagonal imbus tool hole in the middle? This is how Evo2 part looks from outside.

BCDF8554-400C-4528-A34B-DD0153B5B0E5.jpeg

So maybe I will produce few pieces for my car, little part is not worth 300€ or more I believe material and work costs me around 20€

PS I had original Mercedes software when I did my researches, now deinstalled BUT I have my connections at MB tomorrow I will ask to confirm in Factory what engine is that

PS2 First remove end cap (big bolt) then pull out spring only after that unscrew tensioner housing (the big part)

Saluti
Nikola

[Marco]

Hi Nikola

Very kind of you but not really necessary additional effort to produce aldo the dwgs the concept you explained is complete and enough, at least for me.

But the picture from your engine is quite dark…. Nothing I’m able to see.

PS: thanks a lot if you have such contacts at Factory, may be you can also ask about the specific engine number put in 1992 (i.e. 102983 10 017749). If needed I can also send the VIN.

PS2: a part my intention to remove the tensioning housing to put new sealing ring I do suppose replacing the chain the operation is strictly necessary. Correct? At least is mentioned in the 2.3 8V chain replacement procedure I have available.

Buona serata
Marco

[shaq]

Hi Marco,

If I correctly understood your question:

No it is not necessary when your chain is still good every time you remove tensioner to install new chain.

But your chain has 80.000 right? Needs replacement as soon as possible...

I removed my tensioner few times (to adjust the valves) and then put it back in place with same chain. It works perfectly.

Like said above only double checked timing marks before turning engine manually 2-3 times and double check valve gaps again - that’s how I do the job then finally starting it.

By removing tensioner nothing bad happens to chain as long as engine is not turned at all and engine should never been turned backwards (never CCW as seen from front side) even with tensioner because is high risk of damage...

Deadlock tensioner is different story again nothing bad will happen to any component if correctly reinstalled. Procedure I described in post above.

Ciao subito dormire
Nikola

[Marco]

Hi Nikola

Sorry no I explained myself badly.

Yes I’ll replace chain because almost 80000km, based on your previous well noted and appreciated recommendations.

Is it necessary to slacked the chain tension by the chain tensioner?

It’s not my intention to replace the chain tensioner as this is not a critical component for simpler chain in 2.3-16. But I’ll evaluate if it’s leaking from the alluminium sealing ring and in case take out the inner part and then the outer housing to change the ring and put all back.

I’ll buy the cheap Truckteck Automotive tensioner device I posted picture above with the only purpose to see how it works, I suppose it’s the deadlock type.

New argument you mention now: valve adjustment. May be you removed the tensioner because of different procedure for double link chain but I read procedure for 2.3-14 single link chain and this is not necessary because cams can be removed with sprocket in place. Is this the reason you removed tensioner in your?

Andiamo a dormire
Marco

[shaq]

Ciao Marco,

Like said cheap part from Trucktech you will find nothing special inside - is only one small hole in Housing where oil is fed to tensioner nothing special, piston or pin how to call it and spring.

Everything else you already can see from the outside.

Deadlock is little bit complicated, may have valve inside if my memory serves me.

2.3 16 has very narrow cams and 2.5 16 are much wider - so I don't know was that the reason or not reason at all but my desire to play and learn from doing.

I just remember that I did remove my EVO2 tensioner for valve clearence jobt and reinsterted pin from begining not to damage anything for reinstall.

Was long ago, last time in 2015 so I forgot details...

in your case of course before replacing chain you need to remove tensioner to make it free. Tightened you can't remove it AFAIK

Also don't replace original tensioner, just if you will/can may replace the spring. It is the only thing that looses strength over time.

Bye
Nikola.

[shaq]

Hi Marco,

I got message from Mercedes.

They tell me your original Motor was ECE

Your new motor is not ECE

Because they keep track of changes, those are in your case:

Different type pistons mounted:
PN: A102 030 54 37

Different type intake manifold mounted:
PN: A102 140 72 01

Your car left factory with ECE pistons (22mm pistons)
PN: A102 030 67 19

And ECE intake manifold:
PN: A102 141 31 01

Intake manifold differs between ECE and RüF/KAT because of different idle regulator between the two.

Your new engine was assembled in May 1988

Don’t be sad about it your engine is still very good and if you ever wish ECE or better just change pistons.

8 horses is not dramatic difference, ECE is more explosive in acceleration and has slight better fuel economy that’s all.

177 BHP cars compensate for that with shorter differential (3.27 vs 3.07) from factory.

In your case is pitty if they left old differential with weaker engine IMO.

Bye
Nikola

[Marco]

[Marco]

Nikola thanks for detail of the engine, yes better if was ECE but probably it would have been so low in compression so let’s see the half glass not empty, a still health RUF.

Put new pistons I suppose is stupid now and may be an option later for a total engine rebuilt (20k€ job in Germany you said )

The only points I have:
- the engine managemt is from and ECE with a RUF engine
- differential I’m 99% sure they did not care to change, nothing in the invoice
- different idle regulator is the so called IACV ? I can’t wonder how they can differ from ECE and RUF. I’m just curious.
- they (Mercedes) just sold me spark plug thermal grade 5 which is usually for an ECE…shouldn’t put them? But then have only these Bosch H5DCO
- replacing chain I’ll check valves, as clearance is same between 2.3 ECE and RUF.

Thanks!
Marco

[shaq]

Exactly, better to see beer glass 3/4 full than 1/4 empty even it is much less difference between ECE and RüF

So ECE has idle valve with 3 pins (electric contacts)

RüF with 2 pins

ECE idle valve has adjusting wheel on it, RüF don’t meaning on ECE valve you can play with idle revs on RüF not

Also ECE has more aggressive Spark computer so with that in mind you have more than 177HP let’s be honest you have factory chip tuned RüF so your power is in 180+ range, maybe your measurement on Dyno was truish

If we don’t talk about self regulation of mixture to suit catalyst ECE engine computer is almost the same Software as RuF

Or to be more precise ECE runs in one program loop only that has fixed parameters for certain engine load and temperature and on RüF/KAT you can choose (by resistive switch) which program to run inside ECU. These two are very different loops one without Cat fixed and another with Cat self regulating mixture but reducing Power...

You can check ECE ECU has golden type sticker and RüF/KAT is black

Like said don’t touch 80.000km engine: replace chain check valve clearance on COLD engine and enjoy the ride


PS my first Tuning of 2.5-16 was to put ECE spark computer (EZL) it is dramatic better acceleration for 2.5-16 without Cat!
Saluti
Nikola