Maki

[Racing]

Could i ask you to tell me a little more about this turbo project of yours?
What the general idea is,and what the specs are.?

[Racing]

Btw.
This is how we did to make up a turbo exhaust manifold



Difference between now and then...is the routing of the pipe for the wastegate.
Streamlined that a "little" so to say to get better reaction and response out of the HKS unit.

[Maki]

Hi Racing - here are some Datas on my Project.
Bought a new 2.3-16V engine from Mercedes.
Engine was brought to Van-Kronenburg(a Tuner from Netherland).He opened the engine and said that the Original Engine Parts were already really good - so he machined the pistons and the the compression was lowered to 8,5:1 .
The KE-Jetronic was removed against an EFI with a free programmable ECU.
The Manifold is "my problem" at the moment cause i'm waiting for it for over 4 months now
Would there be a possibility to get one from you in the fact that they don't manage it to get one build??? (But i'll write you a PN about this).
As Turbo i choose a Garrett GT2871R 0.86A/R
Don't know if the 0.63A/R would have been a better option as far the spool-time concerning .
I'll run the Turbo with 1.0Bar boost at the beginning.Maybe later going up to 1.2bar but i'll see.
I'll have an external Wastegate. I'll get an Intercooler with a core from 18"x12"x3" that i'll put in front of the radioator which will be replaced against an electrical one.
Then i'll buy a bigger oil cooler.
An other thing that i am not sure is if it would be better to get ARP Headbolts. Van-kronenburg told me that that wouldn't be necessary but i'll discuss this again with him.
Then i'll exchange my cats against Racing ones with 100cpi.

My goal is to get at least 300HP which is realistic like i think. Hopefully I'll get full boost about 3500-3800RPM. Earlier would be better but we'll see.
I don't know if i forgot something.
Maybe you could give me some of your ideas -what i could do better.
Bye
Maki

[Racing]

A GT28...alright.
I think you´ll be just fine with that size exhaust AR.
The thing is...the streetrace crowd around here-the DIY boys that is-seems to find new ways to "el cheapo" turbocharging all the time,and they´re finds of lately has been that you can get away with a LOT of turbine AR if you build it right-the exhaust man that is.
Seing the NA power of the cossie..you´ll be just fine.

Mine btw..is a somewhat larger one-altho still on a T3 flange.
It´s a super T70,just cause i got it brand new for free

Compressor..is good for approx 600+

Yeah, the cossie engines really ARE full of good stuff right off the bat,and i for one settled for a little more static compression than you did.
In my case 9,2:1.
Reason..is that this is a street motor,and these days you can get away with that much comp under boost in a 16V head as they ain´t exaclty prone to detonation-as were the earlier 2 vlv designs.
Just take a look at the boosted M3 and M5 engines around and you´ll get an idea..
What one does is basically to emphasize a certain main area of use.
Ie;in my case..it´s NOT a race car,but a streeter-and i try n keep track of that.
To compensate..one simply backs off timing.

Take a look at the current crop Audis and you´ll get an idea.
Around here...they ain´t even opened up..retain the 9,2 comp IOW..and are boosted inxs of 2 bars on a 27 housing-rendering inxs of 400hp.

Exhaust.
Look.
With a turbo engine...its ALL in backpressure.
One simply measures the intake pressure vs the exhaust one to get a differential value.
The more thought out the primary piping..in lieu with the engines internals..the less exhaust backpressure there is,and the better the engine will run-EVEN ON VASTLY LARGER TURBINE ARs THAN COMMONLY BELIEVED.

Guess what....
Mercedes n cosworth..has already done the job for us
The 16V comes stock with one of the most beutiful headers i´ve ever seen-especially so in production.
What i´ve done..is simply to turn the MF upside down..
Had to reroute the No3 pipe a little,but that was about it.
This places the turbo far out in the pass side inner front fender.
Have...replaced the ASR to the intake side.
Swaped the radiator expansion box for one from a Volvo 740 series.
Exchanged the OEM windshield washer box for one of the Bosch "bag" series with built in pump and placed it right by the battery.
Works great.
Buuut....the thing is that mu turbo physicaly is about twice as big as yours.
Could say...that ample room is something i´m without broh

On the intake side..i decided to scrap the entire OEM setup.
Out the F-in door..
made up some new 50mm intake stacks and routed these to a 110mm dia plenum,which has an "entry" plenum welded atop of it to work as a diffusor-a´la the late design Audi sport intakes.
Throttle body..is at the intake end of the diffusor plenum,and is the modified stock unit.
Modified..in as much as that i elongated the throttle axle to be able to install a Ford/Haltech throttle position sensorn at the end(TPS)
IAT,CTS asf..are all Bosch/Volvo.
Same crap different day really.

The wiring n such..is all home brew.
Honestly..makes for a more "decent n clean" looking install than the average flying lead carpet most mans send with their ECUs.
IOW..it´s made to fit.
ECU is placed as pre the OEM one-Ie,behind the battery.

Btw.
As i run a somewhat larger turbo than you do,when the install is finalized it´ll sport a 3,5 inch downpipe into the full 3" sans catalyst asf already built exhaust.

[Racing]

The 60mm BOV(blow off valve).Homebrew.



The 50mm HKS wastegate.



The layout of the main pressure plenum and intake stacks.
Please observe the ad on injector bungs.
Idea is to run a set of 630cc Siemens racing in the OEM placement,and some Bosch 390ccs in the ad on bungs.



Principle layput before we started cutting and welding.Also gives you an ida of the physical dimension of the huffer.It´s fairly large



Intercooler.An old spearco element,made to fit like a glove infront of the OEM radiator.



Principle layout and angle of attack for intake trumpets and fuel rail.
As you can see,to remodel this into an independant runner setup is very much doable,altho pointless running a turbocharger.

[Maki]

Hi Jesper,
i made a list of the parts i'll need for my Turboproject
I've added also the prices of the parts.

1) EFI+ECU(KMS) ---------- 700€
2) Kabelbaum -------------- 350€
3) Turbo -------------------- 1500€ (Garrett GT2871R 56trimm)
4) E-Radiator --------------- 400€
5) LLK ------------------------ 300€ (coresize : 45cm x 30cm x 7,6cm)
6) Krümmer ---------------- 1000€
7) Ölkühler ------------------ 150€ (Mocal 330mm - 19 Reihen)
8.) Kat 100 CPI ------------- 200€
9) Kupplung ----------------- 450€ (Sonderanfertigung)
10) Downpipe ------------------ ?€
11) Wastegate ------------- 300€ (Tial 38mm)
12) BOV --------------------- 260€ (don't know which one)
13) Bosch 440ccm ---------- 70€
14) Walbro 255L/Std ------170€
15) Benzindruckregler ------ 80€

Would be interesting to hear your opinion about the parts - or maybe if you would recommend me something else or different.
The prices from some parts are calculated a little bit higher so that i have a little bit space in my money calculations
An other thing that i'll install is an UEGO Widebandlambda and of corse a boost gauge.
About the clutch. You said that you would buy a sinter clutch.
Honestly i'm not a fan of sinterclutch cause for city use they're horrible- but i think you are aiming for a little bit more power then me
Bye
Maki

[Racing]

Point 14/
You DON`T need anohter pump.
Forget about that,cause the OEM one suffices to inxs of 500 honest ones on the stock 10mm hardline.

9/On the subject of sinter clutches..to each n his own.
To bear in mind is that when picking parts...don´t be afraid to look elsewhere as far as models asf goes.
Ie;Take us here for instance..the Volvo turbo crowd as used them cars for rallying in the last 30 yrs..and parts-even for rallying asf-are relatively cheap.
Might wanna check any of the Volvo vendors out..as the spline cut for the getrag...is the spline cut for the getrags..and they´ve been used for many many yrs by the rally/racing crowd around here.

11/To save money..some of the hardparts can certainly be picked up over e-bay and similar.
I bought my HKS WG as such,and total outlay was approx 150 euro-new.

The BOV.
The one you see in the pics are made by us.
It is a pure race unit,and we retail them for 120 euro.

5/As far as the ladeluftkuhler..
For a good,made to fit unit..that on the low side.
When we make em-out of race elements that we build tanks for(Ie;made to fit)we retail them around double that.
In the case of an intercooler..you cant go to good a cooler..but u SURE as hell can go to little or bad design.
Just something to have in mind.


UEGOs.
I keep a number of them around the shop.
We indeed use them as simple tuning tools,and..they work.
I HIGHLY recomend installing one.
Frankly..on a turbo engine..an EGT to boot.

For current pricing of a unit that i use myself...check www.etapp.se out
Peter is something as rare as one of the good guys to deal with in motorsports.
The Tewblog unit he retails..works..WTF can i say.
It is stand alone by design,but has outlets that let you transfer the info to for instance an EFI.

[Racing]

As far as power Maki...
I´m hoping for a 400 honest ones @ or around 1 bar of boost with that huffer.
Future will tell i guess...

Like i´ve stated earlier...
Idea is NOT to build another damn race car,but to put together a fun little roadracer for myself.
Something i take on doing from time to time..

[Maki]

Jesper, hätte da noch paar Fragen an dich.

1)Die Größe des Wastegates in wie weit ist die wichtig?
Soweit ich das verstanden habe können die größeren Wastegate-Ventile besser niedrige Ladedrücke "kontrollieren"
Ist das richtig?Falls ja wieso ist das so denn ich hätte gedacht das die größeren Auch für die größeren Leistungen ausgelegt sind!?
Ist ein 38mm Tial Wastegate z.B. ok oder besser größer dimensionieren z.B. 40er oder vielleicht noch größer?

2)Zu deinem BOV - gibts auch ein Rezirkulations-Kit für?
Möchte nämlich kein offenes fahren.
Das Zwitschern geht mir auf den Keks

3)Dann noch zu den Kopfschrauben. Von ARP gibts ja welche. Die für den Ford Pinto 2300CC ( ARP 151-4202) sind ja genau die gleichen wie für den Mercedes 2.3-16V ( stand ja schonmal im 190Rev-Board )
Würdest du welche empfehlen oder halten die Originalen auch?

4) Zum LLK - ja das ist so ein Thema. Habe mich auch mit diesem Thema lange auseinander gesetzt - und leider findet man im Internet viele verschiedene Meinungen. Der LLK soll ja groß genug sein um die Intake Temp. so niedrig wie möglich zu bringen, jedoch anderer seids ist ein zu großer LLK auch für einen größeren Lag verantwortlich. Nun zur Bauweise streiten sich ja die Leute, ob nun Bar&Plate oder Tube & Fin . Soll wohl beides gleich gut sein. Welche Abmessungen hat denn dein LLK? (Die Gesamtgröße nicht nur der Core).Ich frage aus der Hinsicht weil du ja gesagt hattest daß, dein LLK ja vor dem Waserkühler kommt und dort soll meiner auch hin. Hatte mal gemessen und max. Länge wäre wohl 60cm die vorne reinpasst.
So das wars fürs erste
Bye
Maki

[Racing]

1/Yes,you´re correct.
However the diameter of the WG is from a practical standpoint a matter of balance.
Running on a T28(even a ball bearing one) the 38 tial will work just fine.
Of much more importance in that case is the wastegate placement on the header.
For good results it should be inline with the gas "line of attack".
This will aid in low end spool up.

2/No.The BOV we make is not recirc.
It is a pure race unit made for MAP controlled systems.

3/ARP this ARP that..
Something to have in mind...
On the other side of the puddle(atlantic ocean that is )they can´t even spell to ISO qualifications.
That means that "regular" grade X bolts are downright crap in comparsion to what´s available here.
ARP..is qualified by NAS/AN..and that´s another story.
However..head bolts are NOT the most stressed bolts in an engine,and my qualified GUESS is that common 12.9 qualified ISO bolts will do just as fine at a fraction of the cost.
Especially so seing the regular metric windings.
The OEM stretch bolts..has been a known area of hazzle..

4/Intercoolers in general is a matter of a couple of things...
Thermal properties..and pressure drop.(yeah..of course their physical size to boot)
IMO many of the "ready made units" simply doesn´t carry the qualitys needed.Much to the same point as OEM radiators asf.
What i particalulary have in mind is heat "reserve" capacity.
For the odd moment..where for instance ambient temps keep the IC working on the edge...
This is also a matter of balance.
One should never run more cooler than needed,as the larger the cooler..the greater the chance of a bigger pressure drop than absolute must.
Ergo..the reason for made to fit.
In the case of out mercedeses..there ain´t all that much room to play with from the start.
If memory serves me mine is 550*350*60.

[Benzinokaiser]

Hi Maki,

I´ve got a question about the EFI system. I´ve got a 2,3-16v and want to change injection system. Where do you get the EFI from. Do you take an injektion system from an other Mercedes


Thanks Jonas

w201 forever

[Racer]

Hihi.....dem Maki kannste deutsch schreiben....oder griechisch

[Henger]

Hi Jonas,

es gibt verschiedene Anbieter für die Motorsteuerung, umbau auf EFI zb. der Racing stellt gerade sein System vor in diesem Tread http://www.w201-16v.de/w201/viewtopic.php?t=302
Sehr Interessant!

Der Frank

[Racing]

No Jonas.
We make the VEMS unit ourselves.
Mainly the VEMS has been an internet brainchild.
..and most of it has been developed here in Sweden.
It IS however open source,meaning that anyone up to it is free to contribute.